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Post 24 Jun 2012, 2:41 pm

A fair result, if it took Italy longer than it should have done. England were keeping them on the hop in the first half, but sat back far too much in the second.

I don't think there's much more that England could have done. Tactically we are hamstrung by not having enough in terms of quality, but more should have been done to pressure Pirlo and other players who had far too much time and space on the ball. Defensively I think England played well, but the midfield was not doing well and the forwards were just not getting the service.

What I hope is that a lot has been learned for the future. I still maintain that England exceeded expectations but was not likely to win. And Hodgson will not get the blame for this - he could have made some different decisions, but against an Italy on top of their game there is no easy path to choose.

Whoever wins the Germany-Italy game has to be the favourite. Portugal and Spain are not quite firing on all cylinders. Italy looked great tonight, but have less time to rest and the Germans are about the most consistent side so far.
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Post 24 Jun 2012, 2:55 pm

Yeah, it was the right result. Obviously I'd have loved for us to get the luck in the penaltries, but it would have been a travesty.

Rooney was very poor, and it hurt England a lot. We really needed for him to have a good game because we relied on him to come deep and receive the ball so we could have an outlet higher up the pitch. As it was he was totally anonymous and whenever he did get the ball he promptly lost it again.

Fair play to Italy though, they were the better side and deserved to go through. Don't fancy their chances against the Germans, but you never know.
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Post 25 Jun 2012, 1:01 pm

RUFFHAUS 8 wrote: While it's true that Italy was the more agressive team, I don't see how they deserved anything more than than England based on the 120 minutes of play. They were not particularly fantastic or dominant.
Were watching the same game? Italy had about 2/3 possession and completed more than twice as many passes. They hit the woodwork more than once, and Hart was kept busy with 18 shots on target.

They were certainly dominant after... well after my well-timed post half an hour into the game. Fantastic? No, but clearly the better side.

And it's not lot England was wasting time all night or using hystrionics, which the Italians are famous for (and did not disappoint yesterday).
Histrionics? Not really. And the Italians were nto trying to waste time, they were looking for a goal all the way through.

Ultimately I think England played well, but was undone by another of it's age old demons, penalty kicks.
We played well defensively, which is a start and gives something to build on, but the cliché of the night among the people I was speaking to was 'riding their luck'. That it came down to penalties was a good thing.

But there's a lot to build on here, and going out to Italy is no embarassment.
I agree. They are one of the best teams in the world on their day - and yesterday was their day. This tournament has shown that we can beat the teams we should be able to beat, and we are tough for the top teams to break down.
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Post 25 Jun 2012, 2:18 pm

Going forward England need to find a way to introduce a bit more attacking flair without sacrificing too much in the way of defensive solidity. Hodgson's teams are never going to play silky attacking football but if we can get a bit better at using the ball and a bit more controlled in midfield then we could have the makings of a decent side. A lot is going to depend on whether Wilshere comes back as the same player he used to be and then trains on to become the player he's capable of. If so (potentially a very big if) then it goes a long way to sorting out the lack of guile in midfield. If Chamberlian can train on as well then we have the makings of a much more potent team in a couple of years time.

I suspect we'll see Terry levered out of the side before too long and replaced with Gary Cahill or Phil Jones, but otherwise the defence looks pretty settled. In midfield we surely have to call time on Ashley Young and possibly Scott Parker as well. Gerrard may have to drop back and assume the holding role in midfield. He's shown during this tournament that he's capable of doing that job and as he gets older he's going to slow down and naturally drop back a bit anyway, so it could be a good opportunity for us to get Wilshere into the team at Parker's expense. Chamberlain looks a good upgrade on Young for the left midfield slot, and we probably need to find somebody on the right who offers a greater attacking threat as well. Walcott is the obvious name but there are other options too. I wouldn't mind seeing Aaron Lennon given a chance there, he's always done well for England, or if we want to try something a bit more from leftfield then what about Kyle Walker ? That could be a bit too unconventional, but it might just work. He's very good going forward while still offering that bit more stability than a Walcott or Lennon gives you, so it could suit Hodgson's system. I'd also like to see Walcott tried out in a central role. I'm not convinced by him as a winger because his final ball is suspect, but with his pace and finishing ability he could make an excellent striking option for us. It would terrify opposing centre halves and hopefully cause them to sit a bit deeper and relieve the pressure in the middle of the park.
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Post 26 Jun 2012, 12:49 am

Sassenach wrote:Going forward England need to find a way to introduce a bit more attacking flair without sacrificing too much in the way of defensive solidity. Hodgson's teams are never going to play silky attacking football but if we can get a bit better at using the ball and a bit more controlled in midfield then we could have the makings of a decent side.
I'll go with that. Keeping possession is vital, and it was too easily let go when we had a gap between the middle four and the forwards.

I liked your ideas on replacements. No-one said there's a crisis, but we do have to plan for the next few years and quite a few of the team are not going to be at the right level then.
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Post 28 Jun 2012, 12:31 pm

RUFFHAUS 8 wrote:You can think that going to penalties was a good thing, but it only demonstrates your lack of knowledge of your own team's capacity to perform in such situations, nevermind that going to penalties against Gianluigi Buffon is never a "good thing".
Notwithstanding your patronising tone in that post, beginning, middle and end, here's what I meant:

Not that it was good that England got to penalties because I think it was what we should have aimed for or that we are good at them. I've seen plenty of England penalty shoot out failures (and that one success against Spain).

I meant that it was good that England got to penalties because Italy were all over us and we stopped them scoring despite their many chances on target (18 over 120 minutes, compared to 2 from Russia against Greece, underscoring the actual difference between them).

As the Germans are finding out at the moment, that's not actually that easy :wink:
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Post 02 Jul 2012, 11:54 am

Well I guess we found out that Spain does have a fifth gear after all. Watching them play, do you think the strikerless 4-6 will ever catch on at the club level? I know Barcelona does something similiar with Leo Messi but I still count that as playing a striker. Messi is a great passer and drops deep but he's still a guy who can take on the defense by himself and score goals. I wonder if any clubs that have a striker defiency will try and put a cesc - type attacking midfielder up top to play the same false 9 role.
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Post 02 Jul 2012, 2:12 pm

It was a mesmerising display. Well after Greece shocked everyone in 2004, lots of teams (in England at least) took up the 4-5-1. But only those teams with the top talent base could hope to adopt Spain's tactics. Barca did provide quite a lot of that team too.

Just goes to show how far behind England are. And Roy Hodgson may be attracted to a heavy defence, but I don't see us playing with less than 1 striker.