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Post 20 Jul 2011, 1:34 pm

Last weekend I was at ManorCon, which is a games conference that is one of the legs of the Dip Tour of Britain. I played in one game, even though I could have gone for three. So, why?

Well, ManorCon is about more than Dip, and half of my gaming club were there to do other things. None of them play Dip much at all, but most of them used to. Those who still play at all only do so sporadically on line, despite having been more into the ftf game in the past.

More than one game of Dip in a weekend is hard enough, especially if there are alternative games to play. In the other two and a half days, I was able to play Puerto Rico, Agricola, Age of Industry, London, Cuba, Tobago, Giant, Stone Age, PiIlars of the Earth, Braggart, Quiddler, some Hunter v Shadow card game, Dominion, World Cup and perhaps a few others I've forgotten. Plus three games of 7 Wonders with the new Leaders expansion

What's more, it was in a relaxed way, over a beer or two, with lots of chat and ribbing, breaks for food, wandering around to look at people playing stuff like the new Sid Meier's Civilisation and Age of Empires. And wander around the second-hand room a few times looking for bargains.

ftf Dip is great fun, but it takes a lot of time up and is pretty intense with 15-20 minute turns. The hobby seems to be just about recovering from a low point in the UK, partly thanks to things like this website: http://www.ukf2fdip.org/

It's also becoming a bit of a problem that there are basically only two kinds of players - hardcore guys who are all experienced enough and good enough to be able to predict the whole board pretty well, or relative newbies who mess up and let one of the old guard solo. The game I was in contained 7 of the former type - although Russia was playing his first ftf game and we had to keep reminding him to calm down and get his orders in on time. So it ended on a 5-way draw in 1905, essentially because EF v ART were at stalemate and no-one could see any advantage in a stab.
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Post 21 Jul 2011, 8:13 am

When you look at it objectively, Diplomacy is not a great game. Too long, too many players, elimination game. The Euro games have really solved those design problems. I've played many of the games you played, and they're all great. I play Stone Age and Dominion with my kid and his friends. Would I teach them Dip? Probably not, as there are so many better options now.

It would be a shame if people played less Dip for bad reasons, but they're playing less Dip for a good reason: there are better games.
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Post 21 Jul 2011, 10:05 am

geojanes wrote:When you look at it objectively, Diplomacy is not a great game. Too long, too many players, elimination game


Wow. I could not agree less with you guys. I have introduced it to a younger generation in my area--and they love it. We've had a few games and they still love it.

Why? Because it is simple but not simplistic. Because it is social. Because it offers the ability to turn things around. Because it is relatively balanced.

Too long? I don't know. Back in my heyday, we played as many as three six-hour rounds in one day. That was so we could have a best three-out-of-four rounds and have a "final board" on Sunday. Was it grueling? Yes. Was it exhilarating? Absolutely! I would play nearly 18 hours and barely be able to sleep with so many "what if's" and "that was cools" running through my head.

Now, is it a great family game?

No. Frankly, a family that enjoys playing this together is doomed.

The Euro games have really solved those design problems. I've played many of the games you played, and they're all great. I play Stone Age and Dominion with my kid and his friends. Would I teach them Dip? Probably not, as there are so many better options now.


I hope to use Dip as an intro to games with even more to them (rule-wise) like Here I Stand, which is another great game.

I enjoy Settlers, Ticket to Ride, and the Euro-type games too, but there is no substitute for Dip. Period.

It would be a shame if people played less Dip for bad reasons, but they're playing less Dip for a good reason: there are better games.


Blasphemy I say!

Well, okay, I might be slightly hyperbolic, but the greatest game, bar none of the last century is Diplomacy. The real problem with it is that some folks never take the time to learn it well. It's a bit like chess in that respect--anyone can move the pieces; it takes a bit of dedication to learn to move with purpose.
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Post 21 Jul 2011, 11:00 am

In my eyes, any elimination game is a bad game design. You don't want to go over for a night of gaming,and get eliminated early. What do you do the rest of the night? (That happened to me once. Traveled all the way to Maryland, and spent most of the night playing with the dog.) All players should play the game until the end.

How long does FTF play to 18 centers? Potentially an infinite amount of time. I've said it before, but I played a game in college that went to 1939! It was set up in our dorm room much of the semester! A good game should be able to be played in the time after dinner and before bed.

If you can't play it with the family, it's just not a well designed game. You want something with a simple rule set, but complex strategies with multiple paths to victory. That means you can play the same game with your kids as you can with hard core gamers, and you still never get tired of it because you've "figured it out."

I don't mean to dis Dip. I play it. I enjoy it, and would put it in it's own category like Advanced Squad Leader: great old school games that that are enjoyable, but have serious design flaws. While I'm an old hex head from years back, I played Conflict of Heroes last year, and man, I'll never play Advanced Squad Leader again, they took the concept and simply made a better game.

We're living in a golden age of games because people have figured out how to make better games. It's like cars. Sure many of us love old cars, and nothing stirs my heart like a 1969 Monza Corvair Convertible:

Image

But I also know it just can't compare to cars that are made today in almost any objective measure.
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Post 21 Jul 2011, 11:20 am

geojanes wrote:In my eyes, any elimination game is a bad game design. You don't want to go over for a night of gaming,and get eliminated early. What do you do the rest of the night?


1. Figure out what you did wrong.
2. Wait for the next guy out and play a game of Twilight Struggle.

How long does FTF play to 18 centers? Potentially an infinite amount of time.


How long is a chess match? A poker game?

I've said it before, but I played a game in college that went to 1939! It was set up in our dorm room much of the semester! A good game should be able to be played in the time after dinner and before bed.


Strangely, that is a declarative statement from you. I say that because I'd typically be the one making the black and white statements. Here, it's you.

Short games are "good" to you. That doesn't mean they are the best or "good" to all folks.

If you can't play it with the family, it's just not a well designed game.


Again, we disagree. Ever play 1830? I think it is a marvelous game, but not one the family will play.

I enjoy family games, but I'm not ashamed to roll up my sleeves and play something on a higher level. I think you are describing your taste in games, which is fine, but it's not universally "true."

We're living in a golden age of games because people have figured out how to make better games.


True to some extent. CDG's and Euro games are really fun.

However, some games are just too good to give up: like Victory in the Pacific. That game rocks.

There can never be the depth of writing for a game like Settlers or Ticket to Ride or Puerto Rico, all fine games, like there is for Dip. It is infinitely varied and complex while very simple to learn. Why? Because it is dependent upon people, which is why I don't believe it can be surpassed.
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Post 21 Jul 2011, 11:49 am

Can we agree that Monopoly is a terrible game? One of my best days as a father was when my kid told me that Monopoly wasn't a very good game and he started teaching his friends Dominion, Stone Age, Settlers, etc. No one should have to suffer through another game of Monopoly.
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Post 21 Jul 2011, 1:57 pm

geojanes wrote:Can we agree that Monopoly is a terrible game? One of my best days as a father was when my kid told me that Monopoly wasn't a very good game and he started teaching his friends Dominion, Stone Age, Settlers, etc. No one should have to suffer through another game of Monopoly.


I'll agree it is massively flawed. I did play in a tournament once. To my amazement, when you play by the rules, it goes pretty fast. Our game was over in about an hour. Of course, the people were pretty much professionals.
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Post 24 Jul 2011, 12:36 pm

I don't think I've heard of any of these games you talk about except Dip and Monopoly. Is that bad ?
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Post 24 Jul 2011, 1:14 pm

Sassenach wrote:I don't think I've heard of any of these games you talk about except Dip and Monopoly. Is that bad ?


Yes. So many great games have come out of Europe (Germany specifically) over the last 10 years or so. It's a shame that you've not played them.
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Post 25 Jul 2011, 11:57 am

I concur with Steve. It's more than 10 years that the Germans have been developing much better games, as I saw some back in the mid-90s that started to really deal with some basic design problems (keeping everyone in the game to the end, not letting someone run away with it, reducing the influence of blind luck)...

It's not just the Germans either. Martin Wallace has been putting out excellent games for the last 11 years.

If you want an idea of what's out there and well rated, you could do a lot worse than start by checking out BoardGameGeek
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Post 25 Jul 2011, 3:09 pm

danivon wrote:I concur with Steve. It's more than 10 years that the Germans have been developing much better games, as I saw some back in the mid-90s that started to really deal with some basic design problems (keeping everyone in the game to the end, not letting someone run away with it, reducing the influence of blind luck)...


One of the reasons I like, for example, Catan (and its variants), Ticket to Ride (ditto its variants), Puerto Rico, Agricola, and other such games is because it is often difficult to sort out exactly who is winning--because there are different ways to win. Catan, with its ever-changing game board assures no two games will be alike and, in different ways, other games have sought to apply that principle.

There really are a lot of fun games for a variety of tastes.
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Post 26 Jul 2011, 9:05 am

The "house rules" when I was growing up: $500 and all fees in "free parking;" $500 bill on any property when two tokens landed on it; up to three hotels (turn them sideways). We had to use scratch paper to keep track of all the money and games lasted for days!
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Post 27 Jul 2011, 6:16 am

Never played with those rules, but even in standard play it's not called Monotony for nothing.

Still, given that it was based on Magie's The Landlord's Game, designed to be an object lesson on the unfairness of the system of property ownership and an encouragement for Georgist land value taxes, no wonder it's not that fun.
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Post 10 Nov 2013, 10:40 am

bumping an old thread but who cares...

I know that DF has been promoting the ftf game out in the US on here. Just a plug for the UK (and a self-important update on my own performances...):

In my first post I said that the game was recovering from a low-point. Unfortunately, that does not seem to be the case. The 'Tour of Britain' was made up of 5 events when in launched in 2010. It was down to 4 by last year, but is going to be only 2 this year! Next year we are hoping to add at least one more, so we'd have a bit more. But the number of players is also falling:

Last year I didn't actually play any ftf diplomacy. I went to Manorcon and registered for one game, but I was late arriving to start and while someone did offer to drop out, I demurred, and then spent the rest of the weekend with my club (mainly hooked by things like Dune, Ankh Morpork, Village, 7 Wonders...

This year I not only made two tournaments - both of them in the Tour of Britain (and European Grand Prix), but I played a total of four games. Manorcon was just for one game, and disappointingly over the weekend there were only 8 players who played just two rounds between them. I came 8th - less said the better, really, but suffice to say Austria who gets attacked in 1901 by Russia, Italy and then Turkey is not going to last long. I made it to 1904.

But I've just got back from MidCon, a games convention I've never been to before, and based in Derby (handily close to the train station and a short walk away from lots of pubs). There were at least 14 players over the weekend (not sure who played today as I wasn't about), with four rounds and two boards for at least one of those. Hardly a massive uptake but it's a glimmer of hope as we saw some old hands return, after a lot of pleading and goading, and three young (well, younger than me!) newbies who all seemed to enjoy it - they came back after their first game anyway. We played on c-diplo up to 1907, which is a bit short but means games only last about 4 hours. I put in three games and, while I could have done better, I did improve on my dire appearances at Manorcon.

The first round was promoted as a 'training game' for new players, and we had two. They were England and Germany, and I was France. I started off cautiously working in a triple with them, but after a while Germany and I were looking at taking on England. The East saw an RT develop, and while I was able to work with a depleted Italy and Austria to hold Turkey back, we could not stop Russia from growing. England had managed to get an army into Gascony and Italy had a fleet in Iberia, so I thought I was in trouble, but managed to peg bag up to 7 centres, joint with Turkey as runners up to Russia on 11.

Round 2 put me in Turkey, and this was a game that came down to the last turn and saw me slip from 1st to 3rd... Yet again the Western triple was on, but it lasted longer. I had a solid Austrian ally - a player renowned for his alliance play - but Italy and Turkey were sketchy. We spotted the Triple early and did work together for the most part, but Russia developed trust issues and lost out badly - ending up camped in Moscow with me supporting from Sev and pressure from England and Germany. Italy was more solid and I worked with him to push France out of the Med. But once we had, I thought we'd get no further so I pulled back to swamp Italy. Germany finally got piled on by England and France, and as we got to the last few years E,F,A&T were all on about 8 centres each. I went for the win by getting from getting Russia to help me stab Austria. However, at the death a combination of Russian treachery and an unlucky call on a 50-50 move meant that the intended 1 centre grab to get up to 9 backfired, putting me on 7 instead, and Austria took the win.

The third board started with me in 3rd overall, with Russia. The guy who'd won game 1 was leading the tourney and in Germany. So the game started off with England and France gunning for Germany. I opened more to the South, and tried to play both sides in the North, but ended up letting England get too strong. Luckily he didn't put an army my way. As a way of helping Germany stay in, I went full force into Austria, having had signs from Italy and Turkey that they'd come in with me. Italy did, but had to pull away to deal with France, but also failed to take Trieste when it was on a plate, meaning I also failed to get Vienna and kill Austria off. Turkey turned on me at the perfect moment, just as French armies were pushing through Germany, the Germans were retreating into my centre and the English finally decided to move against me. A game full of promise turned into being a case of trying to hold on to whatever I could, working with Austria and Germany to block the encroaching EFT. We did, and they never broke, so the game ended as a DIAS a year early, as England were a centre ahead and were the only ones who had a chance of growing.

Next year I am going to do two full tournaments, MidCon again (Derby in mid-November) and the new one - YorkCon (Hull in late June). Hopefully we can keep the hobby alive.

Anyone in the UK - or likely to visit - who hasn't tried face-to-face should really give it a go. The game is fine over the internet, but together in a room you get zero dropouts and a lot of good banter.
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Post 26 Nov 2013, 12:10 pm

Thanks for the update Dan. If anyone hears of a Dip tournament in NYC or within an easy train ride, let me know: I'm not hooked into that network and it's been many, many years since I've played ftf, but I'd give it another go if it were easy to get to.